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Können wir uns duzen?


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#1 Stafford

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 12:10 AM

Ich arbeite mit dem deutschen Übersetzung von Zurmo. Ich bin nicht deutscher Muttersprachler. Bis jetzt habe ich den Unterschied zwischen dieser erschreckende DU und SIE vermieden. Aber mit dem folgenden, ich habe keine Wahl.

-- Are YOU number one{spaceAndFirstName}? Find out how YOU size up to your colleagues on the Leaderboard.

-- ... With Zurmo, YOU can earn points, collect badges, and compete against co-workers while getting YOUR job done. --

Jetzt muss die Entscheidung getroffen werden... können wir uns duzen? Gamification ist ein neues Konzept. Es geht darum, Spaß zu haben. Aber Spaß bei der Arbeit. Es scheint mir, dass alles neu und jung in der deutschsprachigen Welt ist informell. In bestimmten Arbeitsstättenverordnungen ist es so, dass man immer dutzt. Mindestens scheint das wahr in der High-Tech-Mekka von Berlin.

Also deutschsprachigen Menschen, benötigen wir Ihre (oder deine?) Hilfe.

Meinungen bitte!

#2 Sacha Telgenhof

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 05:30 AM

Hi Stafford,

Very good point! In the Dutch language we have the same distinction as in the German language (Jij vs U). The one form is more informal, the other very formal. Since language are in a constant movement, in the Netherlands we have seen a trend the last 20 years or so, that the formal form is slowly disappearing. Informal form is nowadays an accepted form even for situations where normally you would use a formal language/speech. In my translation of Zurmo into Dutch I have chosen for the informal form.

Probably the same situation is the case for the German language.

Just my 2 cents :)

Sacha

#3 defriedy

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 03:40 PM

Hallo Stafford,

ich bin der Meinung man sollte die informale Anrede benutzen, also DU. Die informale Anrede ist persönlicher und meiner Meinung nach efectiver um die Benutzer zu motivieren. Und darum gehts doch beim Gamification Modul. Ist einfach meine Meinung :)

#4 Stafford

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 07:48 PM

Hallo Stafford,

ich bin der Meinung man sollte die informale Anrede benutzen, also DU. Die informale Anrede ist persönlicher und meiner Meinung nach efectiver um die Benutzer zu motivieren. Und darum gehts doch beim Gamification Modul. Ist einfach meine Meinung :)

Hi Stafford,

Very good point! In the Dutch language we have the same distinction as in the German language (Jij vs U). The one form is more informal, the other very formal. Since language are in a constant movement, in the Netherlands we have seen a trend the last 20 years or so, that the formal form is slowly disappearing. Informal form is nowadays an accepted form even for situations where normally you would use a formal language/speech. In my translation of Zurmo into Dutch I have chosen for the informal form.

Probably the same situation is the case for the German language.

Just my 2 cents :)

Sacha


Hi Sacha and defriedy,

Ich bedanke EUCH for your input on this. I am totally on the same page. I got a bunch of responses from German speaking friends of mine on Facebook and the consensus is definitely DU. We're making a statement by doing that, I know. But I think its a good one. Someone mentioned that LinkedIN and Salesforce use SIE. He asked if we think we're hipper than those two. I say, heck yeah, we are!

How the heck can you play a game using the German formal anyway? It would be like playing cards with the Empress of Austria 100 years ago. Sie haben gewonnen, meine hochgeborene gnädige Frau... Ich don't think so.

If any organization is so insistent on using the formal, then we can eventually have a "Formal German" language pack.

And - just a side thought - a friend of mine suggested it would be kind of cool if the app started out with SIE and then once you use it and establish reputation, it asks to dutz. Cool idea, but not really something we could implement in phase one ;0

#5 adnim

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 06:03 PM

Make it configurable!

I find it rather pesky if some peace of software goes ahead and addresses me informally without my consent. After all, this is about getting work done, and the gamification is a means to this.


-- Are YOU number one{spaceAndFirstName}? Find out how YOU size up to your colleagues on the Leaderboard.

-- ... With Zurmo, YOU can earn points, collect badges, and compete against co-workers while getting YOUR job done. --

Sind Sie die Nummer eins? Finden Sie heraus, wie Sie unter Ihren Kollegen auf dem Leaderboard platziert sind!

Mit Zurmo verdienen Sie Punkte, sammeln Abzeichen und wetteifern mit Ihren Kollegen während Sie die Arbeit erledigen.

PS: Surely Germany can muster up enough grammar nаzis to provide both translations.

#6 iscon

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 10:30 PM

The name would be "Blockwarte" - look at the German Wikipedia pages ;-)

However, I agree with adnim - in German it's unacceptable to address users informally - a CRM system isn't Facebook or Twitter but is designed to get work done - actually pretty serious, money making work which is called sales in most cases. The majority of users will be 30+ or older.

I have seen some systems that used two "languages", an informal as well as a formal one. But I have yet to see the benefit given the enormous maintenance work required.

I just had a very quick look so please excuse my ignorance - is there any tool available that facilitates the translation? Some sort of an extraction tool which would allow for the use of a translation memory?

#7 Stafford

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 09:05 PM

The name would be "Blockwarte" - look at the German Wikipedia pages ;-)

However, I agree with adnim - in German it's unacceptable to address users informally - a CRM system isn't Facebook or Twitter but is designed to get work done - actually pretty serious, money making work which is called sales in most cases. The majority of users will be 30+ or older.

I have seen some systems that used two "languages", an informal as well as a formal one. But I have yet to see the benefit given the enormous maintenance work required.

I just had a very quick look so please excuse my ignorance - is there any tool available that facilitates the translation? Some sort of an extraction tool which would allow for the use of a translation memory?


Having two languages for German (formal and informal) would be interesting. We went ahead with informal. We're building the next generation CRM and from what we've heard from the vast majority of our native German speaking friends, the "next generation" is adopting the "du" at work. We hope we won't offend anyone in the process, but we really want the system to relate to our target audience.

Translations are done manually for the time being.

Thanks for your feedback roblaus!

#8 Sergey Fayngold

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:25 PM

Hallo,

in Wirkligkeit ist es immer Ansichtssache. Die meisten Forensysteme haben immer 2 Versionen, weil es auf die Situation ankommt. Ich kenne konservative Firmen, wo man sich immer noch die "SIE" Form benutzt. Bei der Kommunikation mit dem Kunden wird auch noch sehr häufig die Sie Form verwendet.
Wie gesagt kommt es drauf an, was es für eine Firma/Branche ist.
Da Zurmo CRM eine Software für interne Benutzung innerhalb einer Firma ist, ist es meiner Meinung nach kein Problem, wenn auch nur eine "DU" Version verfügbar ist.

#9 Stafford

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:24 PM

"Ich kenne konservative Firmen, wo man sich immer noch die "SIE" Form benutzt."

I am thinking that the fact that we're Open Source, the friendly competitive nature of Gamification, the transparency of internal Social CRM, and other things that make Zurmo what it is, are more appealing to lesser conservative firms. Especially now as Innovators and Early Adopters are the main groups trying out the software.

Having said the foregoing, we don't want to alienate anyone of course.

I think it is a great idea to have a formal German version. If anyone wants to spearhead that translation, let me know!

#10 Luis

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:57 AM

Hi Stafford

First of all: German being my native tongue, I'd like to offer my support on this. Please let me know where to begin!

About the topic: Formality is a very delicate subject in German speaking regions. While it might be a valid solution to provide two language packs, I think just delegating this decision to the end user is not the perfect solution (after all, if a company really insist on formality, why should their employees be able to choose?).

We also have to think about the possibility that a company might start integrating client logins into Zurmo and at this point it's not just an intern tool anymore and things like corporate identity and communication culture start to weigh in.

Still: At the of the day, Zurmo will be a personal tool for end users, and as such we have to focus on the best experience for this end user. This does not automatically mean that informality is the way to go but I have yet to hear about someone being offended by a software addressing him with "du".

I also just thought about the possibility of ignoring this question in another way: I'm confident that every message could also be formulated quite well without directly addressing the user. Instead of asking "Möchten Sie diesen Kontakt wirklich löschen?" ("Do you really want to delete this contact?") the system could just ask "Diesen Kontakt wirklich löschen?" ("Really delete this contact?"), for example.

Cheers,
Luis




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